作者 主题: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事  (阅读 1540 次)

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离线 Kochchchch

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #10 于: 2024-09-20, 周五 17:52:51 »
变更召唤生物:你将一个因为【咒法】(召唤)法术所召唤而来的生物替换为你可以通过召唤怪物或召唤自然盟友召唤来的另外一个生物。如果用于其预期目的,它很平庸。然而,坐骑术和共用召唤坐骑召唤的生物是有效的目标。法术升阶超魔+坐骑术+变更召唤生物=2小时/等级的召唤怪物。升阶共用召唤坐骑将为您提供最多6个最高环级和多个第二环级法术位的召唤怪物。如果你想要长时间地召唤大量怪物,那么这是个很棒的魔杖法术。你可以选择轮回者种族并从召唤师法术列表中获得较低环级的召唤怪物法术来获得更疯狂的效果。或者,根据你对超魔减环资源和法术升阶超魔之间作用的理解(没有官方判法,他们只是不能将法术降低到低于原始环位,所以不存在戏法魔法飞弹这种东西),魔法裔+超魔大师令您获得比最高环位高2级的召唤怪物。结合变更召唤怪物,这将使你在2/3/4环法术位施放召唤怪物 5/7/8,持续2小时/等级。

此外大胆点合理猜测下
问心无愧哥的这一大坨BD也并非是自己想出来的,15年的时候变更召唤生物+升阶坐骑术就已经有相当大的讨论度了(官方论坛),当然老外们都是正经的以9环施法者的角度去讨论
而问心无愧哥大概率是看到了优化区翻译出来的法术指南的相关内容后觉得很厉害,于是搜索相关内容后发现了超魔大师这个玩意,自作聪明的来了个升9降8,又在知乎中看到了这么一个能卖弄学识装逼的问题,于是就有了我们所看到1级风暴巨人了。

有趣的是法术指南中的超魔大师并非是我们今天的秘学士的超魔大师,而是指剪影魔猎,这个背景早期因为一些法律问题(我猜是版权)被d20pfsrd叫过一段时间超魔大师,即使是今天去官方论坛搜索Metamagic Master得出的大部分内容也是剪影魔猎的相关内容。
所以法术指南里作者原本的操作应该是经典的魔法裔+剪影魔猎经典双降环操作,至于该操作合不合规,虽然确实如这位作者所说没有官方判法,但是我上文也已经阐述了自己的相关观点。

线上 草野

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #11 于: 2024-09-20, 周五 18:39:30 »
问心无愧,又是他!

以及我确实很想说升阶真的减不了环的事情但是已经懒得再具体论证了

离线 Kochchchch

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #12 于: 2024-09-20, 周五 20:37:08 »
问心无愧,又是他!

以及我确实很想说升阶真的减不了环的事情但是已经懒得再具体论证了

没事,我这个帖子已经尽可能详细论证了233

写这个帖子的目的也不是为了挂问心无愧哥,只是升阶降环相关的问题确实还是有很多人不清楚(比如我自己的几个pl),果园之前的帖子似乎也没有讲的很清楚,所以就想详细的讲一下。

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #13 于: 2024-12-28, 周六 17:45:15 »
朋友,你的这段佐证说明你可能没有好好阅读FAQ
引用
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
首先你要注意的一点是法术升阶是和其他的超魔专长不同的,而且如你所说,法术升阶是没有提到法术位的,因为法术升阶的文本一直提到它增加的是法术的有效等级,而其他超魔专长提升的是法术的实际等级,这是两个概念,法术实际等级才是对应了你引述的内容,你一直拿法术升阶去和其他的超魔专长相提并论本身就是不对的。
此外请好好阅读以下的FAQ内容
劇透 -   :
法术升阶:在使用高环法术位施展低环法术时,“法术升阶”如何与其他超魔专长共同作用?

  “法术升阶”的文字描述不佳,容易引起困惑。它允许你以较高环法术位来准备或施展法术,并将其有效环位视为比原版的法术更高。与总是将法术环位+1的“法术静发”等专长不同,“法术升阶”允许你在+1到+9的范围内自行决定提高的环位数。这才是本专长的恰当描述,由于核心规则直接沿用了DND3R的文本,它并未详细解释:(1) 以较高环法术位准备法术的一般性规则;(2) 与其他超魔专长合用时的情况。

  对 (1) 来说,拥有“法术升阶”专长并不意味着你以较高环位施展的法术能够自动获得升阶效果;你仍然需要决定是正常地、还是升阶来准备或施展此法术。若你不是自发施法者 (如牧师或法师),而你想用较高环的法术位来准备一个较低环的法术,那你没有理由拒绝为其升阶 (并无额外时间消耗或任何其他代价)。若你是自发施法者,升阶施法需要增加施法时间,正如你使用其他超魔专长一样。因此,你需要在“以较高环法术位正常施法”和“增加施法时间,将法术升阶为实际使用的法术环位”之间权衡利弊。

  举例而言,一位10级的术士能以3环、4环或5环的法术位来正常地施展‘火球术’,施法时间为1个标准动作,法术视为3环,豁免DC为 (13 + 魅力修正)。如果她拥有“法术升阶”专长并想以4环或5环的法术位来将法术升阶,施法时间将为1个整轮动作,但将被视为4环或5环法术,豁免DC也相应提升为 (14 + 魅力修正) 或 (15 + 魅力修正)。

  对 (2) 来说,你不能没有代价地将法术升阶:任何法术有效环位的提升,都会在添加其他超魔专长、带来进一步的环位提升前追溯确认。【译注:这里和下例的意思就是莫耍无赖:我有升阶专长,所以我用7环丢的瞬发火球术DC天然就是17+Int。】

  范例:一位15级的法师拥有“法术瞬发”专长。若他准备1个‘瞬发火球术’,这需要1个7环法术位 (火球术3环 + 瞬发提升4环)。因为法术实际上仍然是一个3环法术,所以豁免DC仍为 (13 + 智力修正),尽管它占用的法术位高达7环。若他同时拥有“法术升阶”专长,法术并不会自动升阶;它仍然视为3环法术,DC也视同3环法术。如果他想用“法术升阶”专长来提升‘火球术’的有效环位,他需要用比7环更高的法术位来调整法术。将‘火球术’的有效环位+1 (从3环到4环) 将使法术环位+1 (在本例中即为8环法术位,取代7环);将‘火球术’的有效环位+2 (从3环到5环) 将使法术环位+2  (在本例中即为9环法术位)。

  另一种处理 (2) 的方法是先使用“法术升阶”专长,再添加其他超魔专长。仍沿用上例,你可以先将‘火球术’升至4环,再以8环法术位瞬发之;或者先将‘火球术’升至5环,再以9环法术位瞬发之。

  (“法术升阶”是一个较弱的超魔专长,在与其他超魔专长并用时实效有限。)
以上FAQ内容也能看出法术升阶和其他的超魔专长的不同之处,其他的超魔专长比如FAQ里提到的法术瞬发确实是如你所说的“视为其原来的法术等级,即使它作为一个更高等级的法术而被准备及施展”,但是法术升阶无论是从豁免还是其使用的法术位等级的角度,它都确切的提高了法术有效等级(与法术实际等级,也就是一个法术实际上会消耗的法术位的法术等级相对,其他的超魔专长提高的都是法术实际等级)。
另外根据我的朋友新翻译出来的掉链子的限制施法的内容。
引用
法术升阶 Heighten Spell

来源:Pathfinder Unchained pg. 146
在这个规则下,依然可以使用法术升阶专长(Heighten Spell)来强化法术。法术升阶后的法术依然使用最低的CL,但依然像是使用一个更加高级的法术。例如,一个火球术升阶到5环会拥有17的豁免DC和9d6的伤害骰,就如同5环法术寒冰锥一样。
限制施法这个特殊的卡死法术CL的规则下(也就是3环火球术术无论你cl多高你也只能打5d6),提升法术伤害的方法便是法术升阶,因为法术升阶确实的提高了法术的有效等级,因此火球术在限制施法这个特殊规则下只能打出5d6的伤害在被提升道7环后被视为了一个7环法术,那么根据限制施法的最低cl和dc的限制它的伤害和dc也被提高到了5环法术的9d6和17的dc,这是其他的超魔专长做不到的,如果真按照所谓的“视为其原来的法术等级”,那法术升阶是不可能有这个效果的

引用
The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.,这里是我觉得楼主逻辑问题的根本,这句话的意思是升阶法术按照这个法术的有效等级来准备和施展,而楼主的前文提到的有效等级必须和升阶法术施法和准备难度保持一致。。其实倒果为因了。。是你的有效法术等级是影响你升阶法术施展(使用的法术位)的一个条必要件,他们2个并不是互为充要条件。这句话并不能得出有效法术等级是按照你使用的法术位来决定的,只能得出使用的法术位是由有效法术等级决定的(注意没有only所以不能说仅由有效法术等级决定)。。
升阶法术按照这个法术的有效等级来准备和施展确实不能得出有效法术等级是按照你使用的法术位,这点没错,但是你不能断章取义,因为我论证“有效法术等级是按照你使用的法术位来决定”是根据另外一条FAQ的内容
首先我来把“有效法术等级是按照你使用的法术位来决定”这句话从自然语言转化一下,即是
法术的法术有效等级根据施展这个升阶法术实际消耗的法术位等级决定(即法术实际等级)
仅仅是法术升阶的表述确实如你所说并非互为充要条件,但是根据另外一条FAQ的内容
引用
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster.
确定法术等级和法术位等级的时候要以对施法者不利的条件判定,当你使用一个升阶法术并且通过降环方式施展了一个法术实际等级为4环但是有效等级为5环的法术的时候(假设你使用法术升阶单降环的情况),你的法术实际等级是4级,有效等级是5级,根据该FAQ的不利条件判定的话,4级便是不利条件,也就是说你的这个法术最后识别是4环,是可以证明所谓的有效法术等级是按照你使用的法术位来决定的
同时该FAQ下面也有额外提到法术升阶的情况
引用
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
法术升阶是唯一一个让提高法术位等级变成优势而非劣势的超魔专长。
为什么会有这个解释呢,因为别的超魔专长,你要花费一个更高的换位去释放某个超魔法术,同时这也不会提高法术的有效等级,即带着别的超魔专长的好处,以更高的法术位去释放一个有效等级更低的法术,因此在别的超魔专长的情况下,不利的条件往往是更高的法术实际等级更低的法术有效等级(也就是原文中法术等级和法术位等级后相应的括号内容)。但是额外补充的法术升阶情况下,通常情况(更高的法术实际等级更低的法术有效等级)下的劣势的就反过来了,如果法术升阶的法术实际等级和有效等级没有一定的联系的话,这条解释完全就是多此一举。(当然也因此在判断法术升阶的法术等级的时候,根据whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster原则,就要按照法术位等级和法术有效等级中更低的去判断,也在事实上殊途同归了)
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离线 银钥之门

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #14 于: 2024-12-28, 周六 20:16:32 »
拿特殊规则推测到普遍情况也一样太离谱了,取不利的faq说的是法力珍珠法术唤回这种和超魔专长导致占用更高法术位的联动
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

设计师提过的升阶和法术位关系的地方是10年um测试的时候顺便提到完美法术和升阶的互动,设计师给了个不能互动的推测
I am still looking into this, and this is a totally unrelated issue really, but of note..
I am not sure that Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell work together in any way. Spell Perfection prevents a spell from having its level increased by a metamagic feat, and that is really all that Heighten Spell does. Without the level increase, Heighten Spell does not do anything.
Still investigating.. but this is not really a Magus issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.
Looking into it..
Jason

然而根据后期出的物品
When you use a whimsy star as a material component or focus for a spell, roll 1d6 and consult the table below. You can’t use magic or other abilities to affect the result of this roll. If a result cannot apply to your spell, then the spell resolves normally. Regardless of the result, the spell slot required to cast the spell doesn’t change.

The spell is affected as per the Heighten Spell metamagic feat, increasing the spell’s level by 1.
可以看出你用的法术位和你升阶后实际等级完全没关系


离线 Kochchchch

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #15 于: 2024-12-29, 周日 00:45:57 »
拿特殊规则推测到普遍情况也一样太离谱了,取不利的faq说的是法力珍珠法术唤回这种和超魔专长导致占用更高法术位的联动
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

设计师提过的升阶和法术位关系的地方是10年um测试的时候顺便提到完美法术和升阶的互动,设计师给了个不能互动的推测
I am still looking into this, and this is a totally unrelated issue really, but of note..
I am not sure that Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell work together in any way. Spell Perfection prevents a spell from having its level increased by a metamagic feat, and that is really all that Heighten Spell does. Without the level increase, Heighten Spell does not do anything.
Still investigating.. but this is not really a Magus issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.
Looking into it..
Jason

然而根据后期出的物品
When you use a whimsy star as a material component or focus for a spell, roll 1d6 and consult the table below. You can’t use magic or other abilities to affect the result of this roll. If a result cannot apply to your spell, then the spell resolves normally. Regardless of the result, the spell slot required to cast the spell doesn’t change.

The spell is affected as per the Heighten Spell metamagic feat, increasing the spell’s level by 1.
可以看出你用的法术位和你升阶后实际等级完全没关系
你提到的妙想之星,我还是想先说下我自己的逻辑。
法术升阶的原理是将一个法术的有效等级提升到X,然后自然而然的就要运用X法术位等级去施展这个升阶法术,而没有直接增加法术位等级,所以超魔大师这个实际效果是不增加超魔所增加的法术位等级这个能力是不起作用的
其次,我所引用的限制施法的相关规则和前文关于法术升阶的FAQ的目的是为了证明法术升阶是会确实提高法术等级的。
由于法术升阶不同于其他超魔专长,会提高有效等级和所有决定法术等级的效果,所以根据APG的FAQ(尽管此处FAQ原文是未被修改的原始等级,但是如我上面举得例子,有效等级实际上表现出的效果和原始等级是一样的,限制施法中甚至直接将升阶5环火球术和原始5环的寒冰锥相提并论,并且法术升阶的提升所有决定法术等级的效果(All effects dependent on spell level)的所有包不包括原始等级也是一回事,因此除非能找到直接的证明不包括/有效等级和原始等级的差异的规则书文本)它是不能魔法裔和剪影魔猎所被减环的。

而Whimsy Star的作用则是六分之一的可能性让作为其施法材料的法术获得法术如同受到了法术升阶超魔影响,法术等级提升一级
也就是是运用了一个X环的法术位等级,运用一个物品作为施法材料后在这个法术上添加了法术升阶的效果,最后放出了有效等级为X+1环的法术。
但是这个实际上是物品的效果,不是直接在法术上添加一个超魔专长的,而是仅在法术启动后添加了法术升阶1环的效果,但是我认为确实可以证明法术实际等级和这个法术最后的有效等级并非在所有场合一致,且也并不和超魔大师和魔法裔/剪影魔猎不能降环冲突。

最后关于你指出的FAQ所提出的问题是用于解释专注DC,法术唤回和法力再生珍珠计算法术位的情况。确实如此,但是下文的In genera这段的内容是在解释回答和例子的情况为什么要这么去这么算,并且是专门提到了法术升阶的情况以及它和其他的超魔专长的差异,这段内容比起单独回答FAQ的问题我觉得也可以作为其他类似判法的参考,而且该文中的部分也与规则的其他地方似乎并没有冲突,我认为是有一定普遍性的(当然如果能拿出一个更加直接的规则书文本去否决这段解释的话,或者能够拿出一个完全矛盾的实例,比如您提出的Whimsy Star的话我完全接受)

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #16 于: 2024-12-29, 周日 00:51:27 »
引用
“法术升阶”允许你在+1到+9的范围内自行决定提高的环位数。这才是本专长的恰当描述,由于核心规则直接沿用了DND3R的文本,它并未详细解释:(1) 以较高环法术位准备法术的一般性规则;(2) 与其他超魔专长合用时的情况。
这段fq甚至和你前面说的法术升阶不改变法术位仅仅改变法术有效等级相矛盾了

你这还是在断章取义,我说的是法术升阶这个专长本身并没有直接像其他的超魔专长那样描述直接增加超魔所需的法术位等级,而是在法术有效等级提高后,本来就要用到相应的法术位,虽然事实上是增加了需要的法术位等级但是这个专长并没有直接去增加法术位等级。
FAQ的原文是在详细解释这个过程。
请看原文: Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
这里原文法术静发是+1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell,即总是增加需要用的+1法术位等级
而法术升阶的描述是Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9,using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
也就是说法术升阶首先是增加1到9的法术等级而非法术位等级,而在这个过程中会用到比普通法术更高的法术位,这不仅和我说的说法不矛盾反而是佐证了我的说法,即法术升阶的效果是提高法术等级(有效等级),而方式是通过使用更高的法术位,(也就是和提升的法术等级相应的法术位)。即使在这里法术升阶的表述也和直接提到增加法术位等级的法术静发是不同

引用
然后我们再来具体分析一下法术升阶:首先明确法术升阶是特殊超魔专长,它的特殊在于 All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level所有法术等级效果由升阶后的法术等级确定. 这句话康掉了 In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level。这句话并没有提到法术位或有效法术等级。

而从超魔专长概述那里我们可以得出法术等级不绑定有效法术等级更不可能绑定法术位了。。
所以你还要我说几次法术升阶是特殊的超魔专长,不能直接和其他的超魔专长比较,就正如这段FAQ内容就有直接提到法术升阶提高法术等级
限制施法里直接把提高了有效等级的火球术和原始等级的寒冰锥相提并论
法术升阶原文也明确提到了All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level这个升阶等级heightened level,不就是法术有效等级吗
引用
Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level
至于你认为后文FAQ的内容牵强,即使该FAQ内容不足以证明有效等级和实际等级关系,靠不利判法也要判你法术等级是按照不利条件来
(这里其实就涉及到一个问题了,如果你赞同法术有效等级不是法术等级,那按照该FAQ的条目就是法术等级最后会是法术实际等级也就是你降下去的等级。
如果你认为该FAQ的条目不能这么判,要根据有效等级来,那实际上也是将法术有效等级和法术等级做等号了,你就不能降环了)
最后我还是想说PF是PF,3R是3R,虽然PF确实是从3R演变而来,但是不是3R的所有的规则都能在PF直接套用的
« 上次编辑: 2025-03-15, 周六 18:28:10 由 果园米凯拉 »

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #17 于: 2024-12-29, 周日 01:54:37 »
拿特殊规则推测到普遍情况也一样太离谱了,取不利的faq说的是法力珍珠法术唤回这种和超魔专长导致占用更高法术位的联动
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

设计师提过的升阶和法术位关系的地方是10年um测试的时候顺便提到完美法术和升阶的互动,设计师给了个不能互动的推测
I am still looking into this, and this is a totally unrelated issue really, but of note..
I am not sure that Spell Perfection and Heighten Spell work together in any way. Spell Perfection prevents a spell from having its level increased by a metamagic feat, and that is really all that Heighten Spell does. Without the level increase, Heighten Spell does not do anything.
Still investigating.. but this is not really a Magus issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I don't have a problem with Spell Perfection as a whole. I do have a problem with using it with Heighten Spell. Its kinda ridiculous.
Looking into it..
Jason

然而根据后期出的物品
When you use a whimsy star as a material component or focus for a spell, roll 1d6 and consult the table below. You can’t use magic or other abilities to affect the result of this roll. If a result cannot apply to your spell, then the spell resolves normally. Regardless of the result, the spell slot required to cast the spell doesn’t change.

The spell is affected as per the Heighten Spell metamagic feat, increasing the spell’s level by 1.
可以看出你用的法术位和你升阶后实际等级完全没关系
反对
第一个FAQ我在论坛上看到很多外国玩家也用来作为魔法裔不能和法术升阶相互作用的论据
虽然FAQ的问题是特殊情况,但是例子以下的内容是对回答的解释而不是对问题的回答,我认为是可以作为普遍论据的
而且你拿物品作为一个例子去对基本规则解释,本身不就和你说的拿特殊规则推普遍情况一样吗

« 上次编辑: 2024-12-29, 周日 02:48:20 由 798198414 »

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #18 于: 2024-12-29, 周日 14:48:53 »
论坛说magical lineage和Heighten Spell不能互相作用是把magical lineage当作了降低法术等级用,把升阶提高的法术等级用魔法裔一起降了回去,当时有的人甚至试图用+0超魔和魔法裔把魔法飞弹和电爪当作戏法,但是实际上魔法裔降低是的超魔专长对法术位的提升,甚至魔法裔的设计师都直接说了可以一起用

Magical Lineage was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat. So, no unlimited magic missiles. I will see to it that the language of this ability is clarified soon and I will get this added to the FAQ.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Heighten Spell just allows you to bump up a spell's level so it functions as a higher level spell. It's a really kind of weird form of metamagic that doesn't really change the way the actual spell functions at all; in fact, I kind of wish Heighten Spell had been a General feat and NOT a metamagic feat since it works so weirdly compared to all other metamatic feats. (Incidentally, this is also why you don't see us publishing Heighten Spell metamagic rods.)
I wrote most of the traits in the APG, including magical lineage, and as the author of that trait I would recommend that you go ahead let it work with Heighten Spell. If it starts to feel overpowered to you, as the GM you can change your mind (but if you do, I'd give the player the option to pick a new trait).

根据魔法裔的faq也能看出来,法术位的是spell slot level,法术本身等级是spell's original level,而升阶加的是spell's effective level
Magical Lineage (trait): Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?
No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.

举妙想之星只是个例子,天金,魔宠变体都有给法术临时加升阶超魔的能力,各种临时贴超魔能力写法也没有排除掉升阶超魔

顺便第一个faq之所以会出不就是当时有新人:我没玩过3版不知道,反正pf升阶专长字面上写着的用什么等级法术位就是什么等级的法术,然后用其他超魔白嫖升阶的加等级

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Re: 法术升阶与秘学士超魔大师的交互二三事
« 回帖 #19 于: 2024-12-29, 周日 20:55:03 »
论坛说magical lineage和Heighten Spell不能互相作用是把magical lineage当作了降低法术等级用,把升阶提高的法术等级用魔法裔一起降了回去,当时有的人甚至试图用+0超魔和魔法裔把魔法飞弹和电爪当作戏法,但是实际上魔法裔降低是的超魔专长对法术位的提升,甚至魔法裔的设计师都直接说了可以一起用

Magical Lineage was never intended as a way for you to actually lower a spell's level. It was put in to allow you to reduce the increase from a metamagic feat. So, no unlimited magic missiles. I will see to it that the language of this ability is clarified soon and I will get this added to the FAQ.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Heighten Spell just allows you to bump up a spell's level so it functions as a higher level spell. It's a really kind of weird form of metamagic that doesn't really change the way the actual spell functions at all; in fact, I kind of wish Heighten Spell had been a General feat and NOT a metamagic feat since it works so weirdly compared to all other metamatic feats. (Incidentally, this is also why you don't see us publishing Heighten Spell metamagic rods.)
I wrote most of the traits in the APG, including magical lineage, and as the author of that trait I would recommend that you go ahead let it work with Heighten Spell. If it starts to feel overpowered to you, as the GM you can change your mind (but if you do, I'd give the player the option to pick a new trait).

根据魔法裔的faq也能看出来,法术位的是spell slot level,法术本身等级是spell's original level,而升阶加的是spell's effective level
Magical Lineage (trait): Can I use this trait to adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level?
No. For example, it won't allow you to alter a wizard's fireball into 2nd-level spell.

举妙想之星只是个例子,天金,魔宠变体都有给法术临时加升阶超魔的能力,各种临时贴超魔能力写法也没有排除掉升阶超魔

顺便第一个faq之所以会出不就是当时有新人:我没玩过3版不知道,反正pf升阶专长字面上写着的用什么等级法术位就是什么等级的法术,然后用其他超魔白嫖升阶的加等级
依然反对,你看到的论坛内容可能是十年前的讨论,至少我翻到的20年的讨论老外对法术升阶和魔法裔的共同使用统一持反对态度
首先,你说“取不利的faq说的是法力珍珠法术唤回这种和超魔专长导致占用更高法术位的联动”不能将该FAQ解释条目解释普遍情况
根据该论坛帖子https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pzf5&page=1?What-is-the-meaning-of-Spell-level-when-used
可以看到该FAQ的出处
该线程的题目是:What is the meaning of Spell level when used in conjunction with metamagic spells?
即超魔法术结合时法术等级是什么意思?
主楼的问题强调了“The phrase "In all ways”,且楼内讨论问题也并不局限在法力珍珠法术唤回,官方发布FAQ后老外同样将它扩散到其它的问题上
根据论坛的帖子https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43761?Being-MYSTIC-THEURGE-earier-by-Heighten#35
该线程楼主提出问题明确提到将Heighten Spells 与 Wayang Spellhunter结合
楼内玩家均指出
引用
Effectively, the cost of heighten can't be reduced under any circumstances or it nullifies the effect. You must cast it out of the higher spell slot or it does nothing.
引用
Magical Lineage is one of the reasons why that FAQ was made, and it explicitly says that there is no way to reduce the levels added by Heighten spells。
引用
Heighten Spell doesn't add levels to the spell. It sets the spell at the desired base level. That's the rule-based argument against it.
引用
The FAQ makes it pretty (in my opinion) that any reduction to level through the use of metamagic traits would reduce the level the spell counted as when using heighten. There's no getting around it IMO. You're not casting a 3rd level spell when you heighten a 0 level spell and then reduce the spell slot spent to a 1st level spell. You're casting a 1st level spell.
以上分别引用不同玩家的解释,可见外国玩家都认可引用你认为没有普遍性质的FAQ用于解答该问题
此外两位玩家的具体解释和该楼楼主的说法大差不差,我认可该解释方式
引用
Not the requirement for Magical Lineage, the requuiremet is "When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell".

A normal metamagic text says something like: "An empowered spell uses
up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level."

Heighten says "Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies".

The general rules about metamagis say:

CRB wrote:
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell,
Again, Heighten is the only one that works differently, as it set the new actual level of the spell.
引用
According to the wording of Heighten Spell you increase the effective level of the spell. And it is as difficult to prepare as a spell of that level.

The spell's effective level is set by the slot it takes to prepare/cast.

Magical Lineage says " When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."

So the first thing to point out is that Heighten Spell lacks any verbiage talking about adding levels. It instead talks about an increase. This language is very different from other metamagic feats and intentional. Heighten Spell doesn't add spell levels, rather its effect is set by the assigned spell slot used.

Furthermore, Heighten Spell refers to the slot used to determine the final effect. If you reduce the slot used, Heighten Spell still refers to the slot the spell uses. So if you reduce the level of the spell slot, you also reduce the effect of the metamagic.
原帖的发帖人也提出过你的疑问,但是最后他仍然被其他玩家所说服这么做是不合法的

如果你认为这些老外说的都不对,欢迎你直接在论坛上对这些玩家提出质疑,对该回答解释的玩家不少都是自13年起就活跃在论坛上的老玩家了

最后关于你引用设计师的话,这个确实是到目前为止最有说服力的论据,
但是在我找到您这句话的出处的时候我注意到该设计师在他的话最后叠了甲
An actual errata or FAQ for it though would have to come from Jason and the design team. Let's all hit the FAQ button on the question!!!
也就是说这实际上是他的个人观点,真正是否允许这么做需要Jason和设计团队的勘误或者FAQ。
该设计师发表自己观点的时间是2011年
而目前关于该争议讨论相关最高的两个FAQ
劇透 -   :
(即Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?和Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?)
都出自2013年,因此我不认为该设计师的观点可以推翻基于后两个FAQ作为基础推断出的结论。


« 上次编辑: 2024-12-30, 周一 03:15:23 由 798198414 »